DMXIS + MIDI Sync - Not Working/Working Inconsistently/Failing to Operate as Expected

Creepy
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DMXIS + MIDI Sync - Not Working/Working Inconsistently/Failing to Operate as Expected

Post by Creepy »

Okay, let's try to Edit this to see if we can get a response.
DMXIS Standalone 1.6.3 not operating as expected when receiving MIDI Clock.
MIDI Clock tested via:
- Roland UM-One (USB MIDI Interface)
- M-Audio MIDISport 4x4
- MIDI Over Ethernet

In all 3 cases MIDI Clock is received as expected (proper values) in other software (Ableton, MIDIOx, etc), but in DMXIS Standalone the tempo starts correctly, then within seconds it begins to advance until it is in the low 300bpm values and bounces around 10-20 BPM.

Windows 7 system
Very little software loaded, brand new system.

Questions:
- Am I missing something with MIDI Sync on the standlaone DMXIS and if so, what do you think it might be?
- Does the DMXIS Standalone read MIDI clock correctly in your rig?
- What options might you suggest to resolve this issue and have DMXIS respond to MIDI Sync as a Standalone?
- What options might you suggest to run a stripped down MIDI Host *just* to run DMXIS? (Note: Ableton is not a reasonable substitute since it does not play well with external sync and external sync is necessary for my rig)

Thank you in advance for your consideration.

tl;dr (original post) follows
DMXIS 1.6.3 Standalone
Windows 7 (brand new computer purchased awhile ago and 'stored' specifically for this application ie there's nearly NOTHING loaded onto it other than MIDI Ox, Ableton, DMXIS, and Bome Network)
Tested with: MIDI over Ethernet, DIN MIDI via UM-ONE Interface, & DIN MIDI In on Duo Capture (audio interface)
MIDI Sync accurate in MIDI Ox, and Ableton (all connection configurations noted above)
MIDI Sync in DMXIS Standalone starts off 'okay' (several BPM off), but then rapidly jumps around like a kangaroo on crack and settles in the low 300 bpm, flipping around 10-20 bpm up & down.

I think I've been using DMXIS for about 4 years or so. Possibly more. In the past I had it running as a VST in Ableton with no sync issues. Figure I have a fairly good grasp of using the device/software. (No expert at all, but a decent functional knowledge; sort of 'experienced n00b')

The last few years I've been reconfiguring my rig and am not running/using Ableton for performance. Laptop only exists to run DMXIS. I'd swear I tested this configuration within the last 6 months before moving forward to this point (scripting and music pgmd & time to pgm the lights), but I must have missed something or something has 'changed' or corrupted. (The DMXIS laptop has pretty much just been sitting around waiting for this point in the project)

I would prefer to be able to use Network MIDI via Bome Network, but have the configuration available to run off a MIDI DIN. Main control is via Squarp Pyramid. The goal is to feed the MIDI data into a BomeBox and use the Ethernet Out on the BomeBox to send sync & control to the DMXIS laptop, however sending to a MIDI DIN into a UM-One or similar USB MIDI Interface would also be a possible configuration if it seemed to make a difference.

Running DMXIS VST in Ableton creates a whole different set of sync issues because DAWs usually don't like to slave, so that is not an option for this current rig configuration.

I'm at a loss of what step(s) to take next to troubleshoot.
Ack. Anyone with any suggestions/ideas/thoughts/gin to numb the emotional trauma?
Callan05
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Re: DMXIS + MIDI Sync - Not Working/Working Inconsistently/Failing to Operate as Expected

Post by Callan05 »

How many banks are you using?
Try settings all the banks to 120bpm, then trying again.
I had something similar recently.
Hope this helps,

Cheers
Creepy
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Re: DMXIS + MIDI Sync - Not Working/Working Inconsistently/Failing to Operate as Expected

Post by Creepy »

Thank you for the response.
I appreciate the input!

I currently have 3 Banks in this Show.
This is a brand new show in that I've fully reconfigured my rig and created a different set of all brand new of Presets.
All banks in this show are set at 120 because I have never actually used Bank Tempo from within the DMXIS VST and 120 seems to be the default. In the past DMXIS has always run as a VST in Ableton and subject to the project tempo.

Note: I no longer have a need for Ableton since my rig has switched from software/laptop based to hardware based, except for the laptop running DMXIS. Since Ableton does not play well with external sync, and this configuration does not work with Ableton as Master Clock, I have to find a solution for this. Ack!

The current Clock Sync route is:
Squarp Pyramid --[USB]--> BomeBox --[Ethernet]--> Laptop running DMXIS

As noted, MIDIOx and Ableton have no problem receiving the MIDI Clock as expected.

Any other suggestions?
Sorry. :-\
cgrafx
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Re: DMXIS + MIDI Sync - Not Working/Working Inconsistently/Failing to Operate as Expected

Post by cgrafx »

The current Clock Sync route is:
Squarp Pyramid --[USB]--> BomeBox --[Ethernet]--> Laptop running DMXIS
There has to be something else running on the laptop to receive the MIDI over Ethernet data. How are you getting that information into DMXIS?
Creepy
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Re: DMXIS + MIDI Sync - Not Working/Working Inconsistently/Failing to Operate as Expected

Post by Creepy »

cgrafx wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:28 pm
The current Clock Sync route is:
Squarp Pyramid --[USB]--> BomeBox --[Ethernet]--> Laptop running DMXIS
There has to be something else running on the laptop to receive the MIDI over Ethernet data. How are you getting that information into DMXIS?
This is actually a brand new computer loaded only with MIDI Translator Pro (not running, just a backup copy of the software), Ableton (not even used nor all the plugins installed since I'm still using my 'old' computer), MIDI Ox, a DMXIS, Bome Network. There might be a couple other things, but really: brand spanking new computer.

MIDI over Ethernet is received by Bome network. Apologies for not clarifying that.
Except DMXIS still does this without Bome Network/Bome Network disabled and MIDI entering the system in more traditional ways: using a Roland UM-One or a MIDISport 4x4 (USB MIDI Interfaces). DMXIS displays the exact same behaviour.

So, since I've given up on this for a bit i only started getting back to troubleshooting since someone replied. I 'discovered' a new bit of strangeness:

This only seems to happen when there are Oscillators in use.
Static Presets do not seem to exhibit this behaviour. (Haven't tested extensively yet)

I'm wondering if the standalone app oscillators just don't like being slaved.
cgrafx
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Re: DMXIS + MIDI Sync - Not Working/Working Inconsistently/Failing to Operate as Expected

Post by cgrafx »

According to the manual it should work. Is it possible you don't have sync enabled?

Sync to incoming MIDI clock : when enabled, DMXIS synchronises the master speed (and thus any oscillators) to any incoming MIDI clock messages.

Tap tempo via MIDI CC 110 : when enabled, the master tempo (and the timing of all oscillators and preset crossfades) will synchronise to the timing of incoming CC 110 messages (on any MIDI channel, with velocity greater than 64).

Set crossfade time via MIDI CC 122 : when enabled, you can control the crossfade time between presets with MIDI CC 112 messages (any channel). CC values from 0-100 adjusts the crossfsde time between 0.0s and 1.0s in 10ms increments (e.g. CC value 55 = 550ms crossfade). Higher values increase the crossfade im full seconds. (e.g. CC value 114 = 14s crossfade).
Creepy
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Re: DMXIS + MIDI Sync - Not Working/Working Inconsistently/Failing to Operate as Expected

Post by Creepy »

cgrafx wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:45 pm According to the manual it should work. Is it possible you don't have sync enabled?
It is possible (because I am prone to stupid oversights), but it is not the case here.
DMXIS syncs okay when a Preset without an Oscillator is running.
Sync to incoming MIDI clock : when enabled, DMXIS synchronises the master speed (and thus any oscillators) to any incoming MIDI clock messages.
File -> Preferences -> General -> Sync to incoming MIDI clock -> [x] Enable

Tap tempo via MIDI CC 110 : when enabled, the master tempo (and the timing of all oscillators and preset crossfades) will synchronise to the timing of incoming CC 110 messages (on any MIDI channel, with velocity greater than 64).
Now I'm wondering if I should try to sequence an incoming tap tempo...?
I see no indication this would change anything, tho.
Set crossfade time via MIDI CC 122 : when enabled, you can control the crossfade time between presets with MIDI CC 112 messages (any channel). CC values from 0-100 adjusts the crossfsde time between 0.0s and 1.0s in 10ms increments (e.g. CC value 55 = 550ms crossfade). Higher values increase the crossfade im full seconds. (e.g. CC value 114 = 14s crossfade).
I can check MIDI Ox or a similar MIDI Monitor, but I've never used this.
And actually this is totes something I could use and have never seen this!

Note: I've been using DMXIS for about 5 years, although I stopped gigging about 3 years ago and I haven't really been pgmg new lighting. I've always used it as a VST in Ableton because I was either gigging musically with Ableton/controllers or I was doing lights for a band/show and ran it all thru Ableton controlled via APC40. I probably wasnt using the standalone because it didn't respond to MIDI Clock back then...?
Callan05
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Re: DMXIS + MIDI Sync - Not Working/Working Inconsistently/Failing to Operate as Expected

Post by Callan05 »

Creepy wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:11 pm I currently have 3 Banks in this Show.
This is a brand new show in that I've fully reconfigured my rig and created a different set of all brand new of Presets.
All banks in this show are set at 120 because I have never actually used Bank Tempo from within the DMXIS VST and 120 seems to be the default.
Just for completeness, are you able to make a new show, with only 1 bank, and see if that has the same issue?
Creepy
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Re: DMXIS + MIDI Sync - Not Working/Working Inconsistently/Failing to Operate as Expected

Post by Creepy »

Oooh, good one.
That was definitely worth a try and I'm sorry I didn't try thatbefore my original post.
Or - I might have awhile ago (I've been trying to troubleshoot this long enough that I've forgotten some of the things I've tried).

So I create a brand new show
one bank
one preset

I start up the sequencer to ensure it's getting clock and it looks fine (I'm sending 145bpm and DMXIS is mostly on 145bpm, sometimes 146...that's fine: typical jitter in a relatively acceptable range). I highlight some faders and turn on the Oscillator and BOOM: tempo all out of whack - not 300bpm range, but 175-200 range). Turn off the Oscillator and tempo returns to normal/as expected behaviour.

So, I'm fine if I don't use Oscillators. LOL
(Like that's going to happen)
Callan05
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Re: DMXIS + MIDI Sync - Not Working/Working Inconsistently/Failing to Operate as Expected

Post by Callan05 »

Ok, good to know that banks aren't the problem.
What you might be able to try next, is remove all midi / network components and just send midi clock directly on the PC

I wonder if there's some kind of echo/repeating happening on your setup causing the clock beats to be set detected incorrectly.

For a simple test, you can use this tool to send midi clock from the command line:
https://github.com/gbevin/SendMIDI

That should hopefully confirm if it's dmxis itself, or something midi related
Creepy
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Re: DMXIS + MIDI Sync - Not Working/Working Inconsistently/Failing to Operate as Expected

Post by Creepy »

Callan05 wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:33 pm What you might be able to try next, is remove all midi / network components and just send midi clock directly on the PC

I wonder if there's some kind of echo/repeating happening on your setup causing the clock beats to be set detected incorrectly.
Well, this is a brand new computer with very little loaded on it. The 'echo/repeat' is only happening when the DMXIS Oscillator is on, and it is not regular.
Further, Ableton and MIDIOx on the same system do not have this issue with any of 4 options of getting MIDI Clock into the system.

thank you for your suggestion and assistance

Edit to Add: I can't seem to get that SendMIDI to run on a Windows system.
it seems only Mac files.
Callan05
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Re: DMXIS + MIDI Sync - Not Working/Working Inconsistently/Failing to Operate as Expected

Post by Callan05 »

The Oscillator needs the sound card for clock, do you want to try selecting another sound device for output in dmxis? Input can be none/off

I agree it's odd this is the only app having issues.
I have only recently moved to midi clock myself during this lockdown. I used to just send the bpm value via midi cc
Creepy
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Re: DMXIS + MIDI Sync - Not Working/Working Inconsistently/Failing to Operate as Expected

Post by Creepy »

Callan05 wrote: Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:16 am The Oscillator needs the sound card for clock, do you want to try selecting another sound device for output in dmxis? Input can be none/off

I agree it's odd this is the only app having issues.
I have only recently moved to midi clock myself during this lockdown. I used to just send the bpm value via midi cc
Since when does the oscillator need a sound card?
I have no 'sound card' on any of my systems.
I'm using MIDI and I've performed with DMXIS on a few occasions, both with music (MIDI->synths) and without.
I'm using Oscillators, not Sound Tracker.
(Honestly, I've never used Sound Tracker)

I don't understand your post.
Except that it is odd.
It is indeed odd.

You used to send tempo via MIDI CC110?
That sounds like the long way around IMO, but when I started with DMXIS I don't think we had that option in the standalone.
Actually, I looked at the manual for the version I started with and the standalone did not have the option to sync to MIDI clock. ;) (Yeah, and no CC110 for Tap Tempo I think - I would have used the CC122 set fade time religiously though)

I've always run DMXIS as a plugin on Ableton.
I'm thinking since there is no support for this product except a bunch of us throwing out random ideas perhaps I should look for a good dedicated VST Host app.
Callan05
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Re: DMXIS + MIDI Sync - Not Working/Working Inconsistently/Failing to Operate as Expected

Post by Callan05 »

The Oscillators use the clock of the sound device for timing, as far as I know. I'll see if I can find where I read that.

You don't have anything device at all for sound, not even the onboard audio?
Callan05
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Re: DMXIS + MIDI Sync - Not Working/Working Inconsistently/Failing to Operate as Expected

Post by Callan05 »

Creepy
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Re: DMXIS + MIDI Sync - Not Working/Working Inconsistently/Failing to Operate as Expected

Post by Creepy »

except:

"Sync to incoming MIDI clock : when enabled, DMXIS synchronises the master speed (and thus any oscillators) to any incoming MIDI clock messages."

I appreciate your help, but I'm not using audio.

it would seem to me that the excerpt you are referencing may be specific to ShowBuddy or other audio oriented VST Host. I may be wrong, but there is no audio on this system except onboard audio and I have no input nor output because there is no audio hookup - it is MIDI Control and as I stated before, works just fine as a plugin with, again no audio card, in a VST Host, just not standalone. (Yes, I run Ableton with no sound card because, again: MIDI)

So Windows Audio:
Tried with Input & Output: None - Same Results
Input: Microphone; Output: Speakers - Same Results

Edit: Yup, I learned something new!
Still doesn't fix anything, tho. :(
Creepy
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Re: DMXIS + MIDI Sync - Not Working/Working Inconsistently/Failing to Operate as Expected

Post by Creepy »

Okay, i think Im going to try something more tomorrow (Sunday).

I'll hook up an audio interface and try that.
Thanks for your help. I'll keep you posted. My Sunday (Toronto) evening should be your Monday. :)
Creepy
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Re: DMXIS + MIDI Sync - Not Working/Working Inconsistently/Failing to Operate as Expected

Post by Creepy »

Okay, so I hooked up a Roland Octa-Capture and in File -> Preferences -> Audio/MIDI Settings I selected the device.
While trying to sync to either Ethernet or separate USB MIDI Interface, the situation is much, much worse in that the bpm will bounce for a half a second, then stop, then bounce for a bit, then stop. Completely unusable.

So I used the MIDI In on the Octa-Capture.
Pyramid -[MIDI DIN]-> Octa-Capture -[USB]-> Laptop

For sh*ts & giggles I changed the Audio Device Type from ASIO to Windows Audio and the bpm doesn't bounce as dramatically or stop, but it's still unusably bouncey.

And slightly better, but still: works for a fraction of a second, bounces around, then stops. Not as dramatic as using the Ethernet or alternate USB MIDI Interface, but still quite unusable.

This is feeling like it's the end of the product cycle.
Callan05
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Re: DMXIS + MIDI Sync - Not Working/Working Inconsistently/Failing to Operate as Expected

Post by Callan05 »

It's interesting that you could change the behavior quite a bit using the different setups.

in dmxis what midi inputs are shown / selected?
If you disable them all, how does the bpm on screen react when you start the oscillator? Is it stable?

Also what was the source of your midi clock? Alberton?

Dmxis could be reaching the end, but there are other threads talking about version versions 1.69 and 1.70, so not the very end, not yet. Show buddy active is the next generation, but that doesn't mean dmxis won't get any new features or bug fixes.
Creepy
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Re: DMXIS + MIDI Sync - Not Working/Working Inconsistently/Failing to Operate as Expected

Post by Creepy »

Thank you for your assistance.
I've been spinning my wheels on this for far too long.
If no one has piped up with a similar issue and a hint of something closer to a solution, then I either have a specialised application or some strange configuration issue on 3 separate laptops to cause this problem. Nevertheless, the lack of actual monitored support by Enttec is frustrating and disheartening.

Truthfully, I didn't purchase the DMXIS to work with MIDI Sync in standalone because that wasn't available when I purchased and started using DMXIS.

At this point, it does not seem like DMXIS is my solution for running my lighting in my rig and any further energy spent on this issue will be better spent in researching and using a different product, or finding a resilient VST Host and hoping the VST is at least behaved enough to play there.

Thanks again for your time and patience!
Callan05
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Re: DMXIS + MIDI Sync - Not Working/Working Inconsistently/Failing to Operate as Expected

Post by Callan05 »

Good luck with the hunt!

also, did you reach out to Dave via support channels?
Mostly customers here on the forum (I think), but Dave might be able to answer by email.

He's been quick in the past when I've needed help
dnathan
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Re: DMXIS + MIDI Sync - Not Working/Working Inconsistently/Failing to Operate as Expected

Post by dnathan »

I was tracking this. Question:

>Sync to incoming MIDI clock : when enabled, DMXIS synchronizes the master speed (and thus any oscillators) to any incoming MIDI clock messages.

Should this, then, change the Bank Tempo in the Preset Manager and/or the Master Speed next to the Oscillator? I have Sync to incoming MIDI clock checked, but everything I see in DMXIS is 120, thought the BPMs from my Logic MIDI exports have several different BPM.

Thoughts?
RichG
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Re: DMXIS + MIDI Sync - Not Working/Working Inconsistently/Failing to Operate as Expected

Post by RichG »

Ever find a solution to this?

I'm trying to get 'Synch to incoming MIDI clock' working. So far it doesn't seem to do anything different if I have it checked or not. I'm sending a a "MTC Quarter Frame" event accoring to Midi-Ox, but my tempo isn't changing. I can grab the Master Speed knob and move it around. I just stays wherever I put it.

Midi-Ox shows two bytes, for example: F1 7B. Maybe DMXIS is expecting the full Time Code Sysex message? When I start playing the song with a MTC track it doesn't send the full Time Code Sysex message. Maybe DMXIS is looking for that as a signal to start monitoring MTC messages (guessing here).
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Re: DMXIS + MIDI Sync - Not Working/Working Inconsistently/Failing to Operate as Expected

Post by Dave Brown [admin] »

RichG wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 7:13 amI'm trying to get 'Synch to incoming MIDI clock' working. So far it doesn't seem to do anything different if I have it checked or not. I'm sending a a "MTC Quarter Frame" event...
You're transmitting the wrong message type. Show Buddy Active and DMXIS watch for MIDI Clock messages (status byte = 248). Quarter Frame messages are status byte = 241.

Here's a short video showing Ableton Live transmitting MIDI clock messages to the latest releases of SBA and DMXIS...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXS3NZ_wxMI
Dave Brown - db audioware
Author of Show Buddy Setlist | Show Buddy Active | ArtNetMon
RichG
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Re: DMXIS + MIDI Sync - Not Working/Working Inconsistently/Failing to Operate as Expected

Post by RichG »

Dave Brown [admin] wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 8:19 am You're transmitting the wrong message type.
Ah! That would do it. :)

I changed the message typ being sent and I was indeed able to see the tempo change. My midi routing has some issues causing the tempo to fluctuate quite a bit. I'm working on that.

I did notice though... When I start DMXIS, it will adjust the tempo as needed for a little while, but then it stops.
I tried the same test in Show Buddy Active. SBA continually calculates tempo.
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