MIDI control of DMXIS hardware?

SWR
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:03 am

MIDI control of DMXIS hardware?

Post by SWR »

Is it possible to control the DMXIS hardware interface with MIDI over USB without running the DMXIS software?
This would enable MIDI control from an iPad.

The rest of our band is using OnSong and it's only available for iOS.
An ideal setup would be to have an iPad with OnSong sending MIDI commands to both the DMXIS hardware interface through USB or a wireless Bluetooth-to-USB adapter, and in parallel send wireless Bluetooth MIDI commands to my floor board (Helix with MI.1 interface).
Dave Brown [admin]
Posts: 2123
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:53 pm
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 17 times

Re: MIDI control of DMXIS hardware?

Post by Dave Brown [admin] »

No, sorry. The DMXIS hardware has no standalone capabilities.
Dave Brown - db audioware
Author of Show Buddy Setlist | Show Buddy Active | ArtNetMon
cgrafx
Posts: 176
Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: MIDI control of DMXIS hardware?

Post by cgrafx »

SWR wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:26 pm Is it possible to control the DMXIS hardware interface with MIDI over USB without running the DMXIS software?
This would enable MIDI control from an iPad.

The rest of our band is using OnSong and it's only available for iOS.
An ideal setup would be to have an iPad with OnSong sending MIDI commands to both the DMXIS hardware interface through USB or a wireless Bluetooth-to-USB adapter, and in parallel send wireless Bluetooth MIDI commands to my floor board (Helix with MI.1 interface).
You are miss-understanding what the DMXIS hardware interface is. It is nothing more than a USB to DMX interface. All of the DMX commands are generated by the DMXIS software.

There is however nothing stoping you from sending MIDI commands to the DMXIS software from OnSong. You would need a MIDI interface connected to your computer, but its not particularly difficult and On-Song can chain commands, so you can have MIDI commands that are for patch changes independent from MIDI commands that go to your floor board (they just need to transmit on different MIDI channels).
SWR
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:03 am

Re: MIDI control of DMXIS hardware?

Post by SWR »

Thank you for the quick reply cgrafx. :)
cgrafx wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:14 am You would need a MIDI interface connected to your computer,
This is what I want to avoid - having both a PC and an iPad on stage.
SWR
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:03 am

Re: MIDI control of DMXIS hardware?

Post by SWR »

cgrafx wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:14 am You are miss-understanding what the DMXIS hardware interface is. It is nothing more than a USB to DMX interface. All of the DMX commands are generated by the DMXIS software.
Well, this is what led me astray (from page 14 in the DMXIS user manual):
An on-board microprocessor performs all the DMX frame buffering – in other words, the interface
itself is responsible for generating a steady and reliable DMX data stream. This is far more reliable
than some cheaper USB-DMX devices which rely on your computer to generate the data.
SWR
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:03 am

Re: MIDI control of DMXIS hardware?

Post by SWR »

Thank you for the quick reply Dave. :)
Dave Brown [admin] wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:15 pm No, sorry. The DMXIS hardware has no standalone capabilities.
Is the interface between the PC software and the Entech DMXIS microcontroller running an open documented protocol or is this proprietary information?
SWR
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:03 am

Re: MIDI control of DMXIS hardware?

Post by SWR »

It's been a while since I fiddled with this, but if I recall correctly the light show still runs if you close the DMXIS software and keep the DMXIS hardware powered. I might remember wrong but it seems to me the the box itself kept reacting to footswitches changing both Bank and Preset. Even the oscillators were still running.

I might remember wrong though ... I'll try it out again this weekend. :)
cgrafx
Posts: 176
Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: MIDI control of DMXIS hardware?

Post by cgrafx »

SWR wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:33 am It's been a while since I fiddled with this, but if I recall correctly the light show still runs if you close the DMXIS software and keep the DMXIS hardware powered. I might remember wrong but it seems to me the the box itself kept reacting to footswitches changing both Bank and Preset. Even the oscillators were still running.

I might remember wrong though ... I'll try it out again this weekend. :)
The box is buffered and holds the last DMX value. It will absolutely not change banks or presets without the software running. It is not a standalone device, it doesn't have any knowledge of banks, presets, or any other DMX show related information, all of that is handled by the software.
cgrafx
Posts: 176
Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: MIDI control of DMXIS hardware?

Post by cgrafx »

SWR wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:21 am
cgrafx wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:14 am You are miss-understanding what the DMXIS hardware interface is. It is nothing more than a USB to DMX interface. All of the DMX commands are generated by the DMXIS software.
Well, this is what led me astray (from page 14 in the DMXIS user manual):
An on-board microprocessor performs all the DMX frame buffering – in other words, the interface
itself is responsible for generating a steady and reliable DMX data stream. This is far more reliable
than some cheaper USB-DMX devices which rely on your computer to generate the data.
Yes the box handles the hardware task of translating the DMX commands from the software into a reliable DMX data stream. It is just the DMX interface for the computer. Without the software its useless.
cgrafx
Posts: 176
Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: MIDI control of DMXIS hardware?

Post by cgrafx »

SWR wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:06 am Thank you for the quick reply cgrafx. :)
cgrafx wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:14 am You would need a MIDI interface connected to your computer,
This is what I want to avoid - having both a PC and an iPad on stage.
The only way to avoid having both a PC (or other lighting controller) and your iPad on stage would be to have lighting control software that runs on your iPad and a DMX interface for your iPad.

MIDI is not DMX nor a lighting protocol so you will still need a DMX lighting controller running somewhere to make that work.

The DMXIS hardware box is NOT a lighting controller, its just a computer interface and its specifically designed to work with the DMXIS software.
SWR
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:03 am

Re: MIDI control of DMXIS hardware?

Post by SWR »

Ok. Thanks. :)
PAngell44
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue May 10, 2016 7:20 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: MIDI control of DMXIS hardware?

Post by PAngell44 »

This doesn’t solve your problem of not having to have both a laptop and an iPad, but I run TouchOSC and seamlessly control the banks and presets from the iPad and just leave the pc tucked away somewhere onstage. It does require a network to run it on, but most people have that running for their mixers these days anyway.

Hope that helps.
SWR
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:03 am

Re: MIDI control of DMXIS hardware?

Post by SWR »

Thanks for the suggestion. :)

I'm currently looking into letting OnSong control the lights communicating wirelessly through ArtNET to a wireless DMX bridge.
They have something called Scenes where you can configure and control you DMX rig.
The particular point I'm trying to get my head around is how to make chases without oscillators.
You can define Sequences to associate with lights or groups of lights, but I think I'll have to make many of them with different amplitudes, forms (sine,triangle,square,ramp) and speeds. If I can't parameterize those then I need a pallette with all the combinations I need. It'll take me some time to figure this out. :geek:
cgrafx
Posts: 176
Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: MIDI control of DMXIS hardware?

Post by cgrafx »

Ok.. your still not understanding what I've already told you.

OnSong is NOT a lighting console, it will not generate DMX in any shape or form

Artnet is also NOT DMX and will not magically generate DMX. It is a transport protocol that allows you to pass DMX commands over Ethernet.

You cannot get from OnSong to DMX with out a DMX console (either software or hardware based). Somewhere you have to generate DMX commands and OnSong is not capable of doing that.

If you want to stay strictly on your iPAD you will need DMX based lighting software on your iPAD. You should be able to send MIDI commands to that software to change presets, but you CANNOT use OnSong by its self without a lighting console that will generate DMX commands.
SWR
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:03 am

Re: MIDI control of DMXIS hardware?

Post by SWR »

I get it that at some point you have to convert the ArtNET DMX commands to the DMX link layer and physical 250kHz asynchronous 8N2 serial link through an RS485 transceiver, but it is not true that this has to be done inside the iPad.

The least amount of work would be a EZ Kling DMX controller through a WiFi router.

The cheapest option is to use a $3 ESP32 to receive ArtNET and generate DMX. Google “Using ArtNET DMX and the ESP32”. There are several projects on this.

On the output of the ESP32 I would connect a cheap chinese wireless DMX transceiver.

It would also be possible to build in an ESP32 in each fixture to receive ArtNET directly. At $3 they are actually cheaper than the wireless DMX tranceivers.
cgrafx
Posts: 176
Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: MIDI control of DMXIS hardware?

Post by cgrafx »

SWR wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:03 pm I get it that at some point you have to convert the ArtNET DMX commands to the DMX link layer and physical 250kHz asynchronous 8N2 serial link through an RS485 transceiver, but it is not true that this has to be done inside the iPad.

The least amount of work would be a EZ Kling DMX controller through a WiFi router.

The cheapest option is to use a $3 ESP32 to receive ArtNET and generate DMX. Google “Using ArtNET DMX and the ESP32”. There are several projects on this.

On the output of the ESP32 I would connect a cheap chinese wireless DMX transceiver.

It would also be possible to build in an ESP32 in each fixture to receive ArtNET directly. At $3 they are actually cheaper than the wireless DMX tranceivers.
The SPECIFIC point was he can't get from OnSong to DMX without a lighting control layer somewhere in between and ArtNET as a transport protocol is not going to help.

OnSong is NOT a lighting console and will not generate anything other than MIDI.

Somewhere there is going to have to be a lighting console to deal with creating scenes/presets, you cannot do that in OnSong.
SWR
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:03 am

Re: MIDI control of DMXIS hardware?

Post by SWR »

cgrafx wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:22 pm OnSong is NOT a lighting console and will not generate anything other than MIDI.
Ok, I get the message. Thank you for pointing this out.

I'll simply write this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_rls43BwbA
and let him know that he has completely misunderstood the concept.
Somewhere there is going to have to be a lighting console to deal with creating scenes/presets, you cannot do that in OnSong.
I should also contact OnSong and ask them to pull down this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aS2rbXN4ML4
I'll tell them that it just can't be done this way.

Kind regards
Soren
cgrafx
Posts: 176
Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: MIDI control of DMXIS hardware?

Post by cgrafx »

SWR wrote: Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:35 pm
cgrafx wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:22 pm OnSong is NOT a lighting console and will not generate anything other than MIDI.
Ok, I get the message. Thank you for pointing this out.

I'll simply write this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_rls43BwbA
and let him know that he has completely misunderstood the concept.
Somewhere there is going to have to be a lighting console to deal with creating scenes/presets, you cannot do that in OnSong.
I should also contact OnSong and ask them to pull down this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aS2rbXN4ML4
I'll tell them that it just can't be done this way.

Kind regards
Soren
I stand corrected. Scenes will get you DMX output to control your lights and handle basic transitions.

You'll need an artNet node to connect to your lights.

https://www.enttec.com/product/controls ... interface/
http://shop.dmxking.com/eDMX1-PRO_p_8.html
https://sgmlight.com/products/entertainment/a·4
https://www.chauvetdj.com/products/dmx-an/ (This was just recently discontinued, but there should still be stock available)
SWR
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:03 am

Re: MIDI control of DMXIS hardware?

Post by SWR »

Thank you for the ArtNET to DMX converter links.
That would undoubtedly be the fastet way to get something going. :)

It would be neat to go wireless to the different positions to avoid cabling and have only 230V power to connect at setup.
My current setup has 2 frontlight T-bars, 1 rear 6m (20') truss, 5 floor lights, 2 fire units, 1 hazer and 1 video panel wall.
That would be 12 wireless ArtNET to DMX converters in total.

The downside is that they cost at least $100 each (Elation EZ KLING on Amazon).
… and the cheapest ones only support 1 universe.
My video wall has 8250 pixels requiring 24,17 universes with 4 bit/color or 30,21 universes with 5 bit/color.
Even though the rest (25 moving heads) will fit in 1 universe, it's still a major expense to go full wireless.

It would make setup much quicker though, so I was exploring some lower cost options based on the ESP modules.
Fixtures: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... CxcUrVRrqg
Pixeltape: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXv9AU-MPBU

This is the BOM: prices from AliExpress
$1,250 ESP8266 wireless module
$0,025 MAX485 transceiver
$0,017 Vero board 12,7x25mm
------
$1,292 Total (plus shipping, wire, solder and a few hours of work)

I'll also throw on a 1uF/10V MLCC for decoupling the 5V supply I'm stealing from the moving head.
The other 3 wires are attached to the DMX connector.
My movers have plastic housing, so I expect the WiFi will pass without any issues.

A $1,30 converter without universe restrictions is hard to beat, but it is a some-assembly-required approach. :)
dallaskruse
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:37 am

Re: MIDI control of DMXIS hardware?

Post by dallaskruse »

This thread is very informative.

I was unaware OnSong had DMX/Scenes capabilites.


Throwing this out there ... for your wireless desires ... what about using the wired ArtNet and going wireless with just the DMX?

I was looking at wireless DMX the other day and there's some stuff on Amazon. I think companies like Donner make 8 pack wireless DMX transmitter/receiver for around $200+
SWR
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:03 am

Re: MIDI control of DMXIS hardware?

Post by SWR »

That's certainly doable with wired ArtNET, but why not loose the wires?
Cables cost money. They are also prone to wear and it takes time to connect them all at setup and teardown.

$200 for an 8 pack is ok, but it's even cheaper on AliExpress:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3297096 ... 4c4dJ9e4LA
This way you can build them into the fixture and only drill a hole for the antenna.

The ESP-01 solution is even cheaper (below $2) and you don't have to drill fixtures with plastic housing.
I will give this one a try first. There are no wires to the iPad and only power to the fixtures.
Should be quick to set up and tear down. :D
floodstage
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:37 am

Re: MIDI control of DMXIS hardware?

Post by floodstage »

fwiw, OnSong does has a lighting program

You can use it and not use DMXIS I suppose

I haven't messed with it because I'm already there w/DMXIS

https://youtu.be/aS2rbXN4ML4


cgrafx wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:53 am Ok.. your still not understanding what I've already told you.

OnSong is NOT a lighting console, it will not generate DMX in any shape or form

Artnet is also NOT DMX and will not magically generate DMX. It is a transport protocol that allows you to pass DMX commands over Ethernet.

You cannot get from OnSong to DMX with out a DMX console (either software or hardware based). Somewhere you have to generate DMX commands and OnSong is not capable of doing that.

If you want to stay strictly on your iPAD you will need DMX based lighting software on your iPAD. You should be able to send MIDI commands to that software to change presets, but you CANNOT use OnSong by its self without a lighting console that will generate DMX commands.
Post Reply