D-pro & PRO Mk2 limitations

Dj Solo
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D-pro & PRO Mk2 limitations

Post by Dj Solo »

Why when option "midi input" on Mk2 is enabled, you can only transmit ONE DMX universe of data from the PRO Mk2? - what if I want to transmit all 4096 channels, triggering them with midi commands?
2Henchmen
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Re: D-pro & PRO Mk2 limitations

Post by 2Henchmen »

Well, for starters the Mk2 is only capable of transmitting 2 universes of DMX. So you wouldn't be able to transmit 4096 channels of data using that device alone.

As for it limiting to one universe when MIDI is enabled, I don't see any season why that should be the case. What exactly is your setup? Unless there is some technical limitation to the hardware, it seems based on the information available about the Mk2 that using MIDI and 2U of output shouldn't be a problem.

Edit: The MIDI breakout does have two connectors for DMX-1 and one for DMX-2. Is there a possibility you ran two universes in the two DMX-1 connectors?
Dj Solo
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Re: D-pro & PRO Mk2 limitations

Post by Dj Solo »

Ok, imagine I bought DPRO 8 Universe (4096 Channels) With Licence Dongle...
PRO Mk2 box is capable of transmitting of 2 universes 512 channels each to the output - so thats 1024 ch of output for each device. This way, I will need 4 Mk2 boxes, transmitting 2 universes each, ok? That's clear.
now: On page 26-27 of D-pro manual it sais: you must tick the “Enable MIDI Input”
option in the Connection Properties window for the device [image] and then goes FATAL: "Note that when this option is enabled, you can only transmit ONE DMX universe of data from the PRO Mk2". - which means if I have 4 boxes with “Enable MIDI Input” preference, then I would only have 2048 channels of output data transmitting instead of 4096 Channels! Please provide me with solution...
2Henchmen
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Re: D-pro & PRO Mk2 limitations

Post by 2Henchmen »

Dj Solo wrote:Ok, imagine I bought DPRO 8 Universe (4096 Channels) With Licence Dongle...
PRO Mk2 box is capable of transmitting of 2 universes 512 channels each to the output - so thats 1024 ch of output for each device. This way, I will need 4 Mk2 boxes, transmitting 2 universes each, ok? That's clear.
now: On page 26-27 of D-pro manual it sais: you must tick the “Enable MIDI Input”
option in the Connection Properties window for the device [image] and then goes FATAL: "Note that when this option is enabled, you can only transmit ONE DMX universe of data from the PRO Mk2". - which means if I have 4 boxes with “Enable MIDI Input” preference, then I would only have 2048 channels of output data transmitting instead of 4096 Channels! Please provide me with solution...
I checked the manual. And yeah, it looks like with MIDI input, the Mk2 isn't capable of transmitting more than 1U. So in that sense, you're out of luck using the Mk2 for Midi and 2U output. Solution for that is picking up another MIDI interface to handle the MIDI triggers, like a MIDISport 2x2.

But to be honest, trying to run 8U using Mk2s is not the way I'd go about trying to run an 8U platform. You would be far better off getting an 8U Art-Net Node. Cheaper too, since there are some models available for under $800.

Edit: As an addendum, you actually would have 7 available universes with 4 boxes. Only one needs to have Midi enabled in order to control D-Pro.
Dj Solo
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Re: D-pro & PRO Mk2 limitations

Post by Dj Solo »

Do you have direct number I could call now?
2Henchmen
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Re: D-pro & PRO Mk2 limitations

Post by 2Henchmen »

Me personally? No, sorry. I am more than happy to help however I can here on the forum.
Dj Solo
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Re: D-pro & PRO Mk2 limitations

Post by Dj Solo »

Look, all I need is to get rid of this annoying limitations everywhere and get the programming flexibility I need.
I'm a dj, run ableton. The idea is to pre-programm lightshows for each track and just trig them, while mixing, via midi commands. First I started off with DMXIS, cause it was the only product on the market that would have vst plugin feature.
Loved it's bpm syncing, masking e.t.c. even bought show buddy... After a while I needed more DMX output, so DMXIS didn't fit me anymore. You guys suggested d-pro and now again, can't use it... ( For me BPM syncing is VITAL for controlled channels, cause I beleive its the only way to create a good-looking, exciting lightshow, with "movements and flashes" "right on time" if you get what I mean...
Please, give me an idea to satisfy my needs...
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Re: D-pro & PRO Mk2 limitations

Post by Dj Solo »

Hope, I'm not sounding rude... just confused and frustrated (
2Henchmen
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Re: D-pro & PRO Mk2 limitations

Post by 2Henchmen »

D-Pro is a solid choice for what you're looking for.

If you run Ableton, then I assume you're using some external controller to help trigger aspects of Ableton yeah? If so, what controller are you using? Does it plug directly in to USB? Is there a reason to run physical MIDI to the Mk2? For example, instead of physical MIDI cable, I use a USB MIDI trigger pad or TouchOSC and the bridge to feed info into D-Pro.

The reason I ask is, if you've already got a controller with MIDI set to run Ableton, there's no problem having D-Pro listen in on the same signal. Then its pretty simple to set up show control to listen to some of the same commands. No need to use the Mk2 for MIDI.

If you are committed to running physical MIDI, then having a dedicated piece of MIDI hardware would be important. Like I said, a MIDISport 2x2 is a great option. Then you don't have to use the MIDI connection on the Mk2. Problem solved, and you've got your 2U back.

However, if you're trying to run 8U of channels then the Mk2 is the wrong platform to be using. A cheaper, easier, and cleaner option is an 8U Art-Net node.

In order to assist you more, I really need to know more about you exact setup.
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Re: D-pro & PRO Mk2 limitations

Post by Dj Solo »

I run ableton 9 with AKAI APC40, m-audio keystation 49es, cakewalk sonar power studio sound card... right now I have DMXIS for lights. Planning to use lightconverse software to be able to emulate large complex rigs - so I need something receiving/transmitting ethernet signal and art-net. Please, pm me exact model and brand of controlling hardware that d-pro and lightconverse will work with and, what's more important, will support it's full potential and functionality. And how do you hook up virtual midi interaction between ableton and d-pro? what midi commands used, is it the same like in DMXIS (ch15, ch16) used? And another question, does D-Pro have this "sound tracker" that lets you “sound activate” selected channels to track the input audio, like DMXIS?
Thanks for support, I appreciate. :)
2Henchmen
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Re: D-pro & PRO Mk2 limitations

Post by 2Henchmen »

Light Converse shouldn't need any additional hardware. Since Art-Net is a broadcast, another piece of software on your network, or computer won't have a problem receiving Art-Net directly from D-Pro. For example, ArtNetomator and Wyg can easily see the Art-Net broadcast coming from D-Pro on my machine. No hardware needed.

As for output hardware, an Elation eNode8 Pro can put 8U of DMX from Art-Net sources.

As for MIDI, within D-Pro preferences within Audio/MIDI there's a section for active MIDI inputs. I've used Ableton in the past, and it should have no issues pushing MIDI to the rest of the system. Otherwise, your control surfaces should also be pushing MIDI into D-Pro. If that doesn't work, you could use something like Bome's MIDI Translator to take MIDI from one item and feed it into D-Pro.

D-Pro operates on MIDI via learned commands. So, you can assign whatever trigger you want to show control buttons, masters, command line, programming keys, etc. For show control, you just right-click a button, go to "Start Trigger" and then the MIDI tab. Hit learn, hit the key on your controller and you're done. For command line things, there's a remote control tab in D-Pro preferences.

Regarding audio triggering, I don't believe D-Pro handles it like you would want. However, you can drag audio tracks in to Cuelists and build the list to the waveform. Very handy.
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Re: D-pro & PRO Mk2 limitations

Post by Dj Solo »

Is there a difference between Elation eNode8 Pro and Enttec Datagate MK2?
2Henchmen
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Re: D-pro & PRO Mk2 limitations

Post by 2Henchmen »

There's a big difference in price and features. The Datagate is much pricier, but also can do a lot more things. I've got a Datagate for one of my projects, but if you're looking to just output from D-Pro it's probably a little overkill.
Dj Solo
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Re: D-pro & PRO Mk2 limitations

Post by Dj Solo »

Triggering with hardware midi devices understood, but could you please guide me thru the process of establishing virtual midi connections between ableton and D-Pro? So I could send recorded midi notes from midi channel...
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Re: D-pro & PRO Mk2 limitations

Post by Dave Brown [admin] »

Dj Solo wrote:Triggering with hardware midi devices understood, but could you please guide me thru the process of establishing virtual midi connections between ableton and D-Pro? So I could send recorded midi notes from midi channel...
Install a MIDI loopback driver on your PC, for example LoopBe1. This allows you to transmit MIDI data between programs running on the same computer.
Dave Brown - db audioware
Author of Show Buddy Setlist | Show Buddy Active | ArtNetMon
JeremyAtEnttec
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Re: D-pro & PRO Mk2 limitations

Post by JeremyAtEnttec »

Wow, that';s a lot of convo back and forth that I missed stepping into. I appreciate the help Colin!

He's right about a lot of that too.

There is a technical limitation to the DMX USB PRO Mk2 that means it has to have either 2 universes of DMX functionality or 1 and MIDI. I can't quote you what that limit is concerned with, but it comes from the hardware engineers, and Dave Brown just followed their guidelines.

Colin's point about the preferability of using Ethernet to USB for when you've got that many universes, that's spot on. Watch out for super cheap 8 port nodes, that don't have isolation between the DMX ports, that's kind of important for a touring rig in my opinion. We'd rather you use something like the Datagate Mk2, but that's partly us pushing ENTTEC hardware, and the compatibility of Art-Net with many things gives you quite a few options.

The way DMXIS works as a plug in is unique, it's true, and that is deliberately missing from DPRO because it address a fundamentally different market with a different set of problems. If you have a plug-in architecture you are limited to what you can do window-wise, and the flexibility of DPRO is heavily tied to the way multiple windows can be used together, dragging and dropping between, etc.

Using MIDI channel 15 and 16 in the ways that DMXIS dedicates them to being used, is not part of DPRO. Instead you can play multiple Cue Lists simultaneously if you wish, which is a big improvement once you get the hang of it. Set up your Show Control window how you like it (the different sections can be toggled on/off and expanded into as many rows/columns and tabs as you like in the Preferences window). Then right click on a button or submaster to do a Start Trigger. MIDI is one of your options there.

Get the MIDI from Ableton, or an external source, or the AKAI, whatever makes sense for your workflow.

Hope that helps!
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Re: D-pro & PRO Mk2 limitations

Post by JeremyAtEnttec »

I should have read the 2nd page of the thread before I posted. Didn't see there was one at first.
2Henchmen
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Re: D-pro & PRO Mk2 limitations

Post by 2Henchmen »

And for what it's worth, I'm extremely happy with the Datagate Mk2 I've got on this project. I'll be spec'ing them any time I need a solid ArtNet interface.

Recommending an Elation was all about cost. 4x of the Mk2 is about $880. So I figured that was about the budget. At around $800-$900 the Elation unit is about a grand cheaper than the Datagate. But, that being said, the Datagate is absolutely worth the extra coin if the budget allows it. Peace of mind from solid equipment is hard to put a price on.
Dj Solo
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Re: D-pro & PRO Mk2 limitations

Post by Dj Solo »

but dont forget about extra license software, that comes with it.... to use it's full functionality it would cost another 2253$!
by the way can you please explain them?
MERGING LICENSE FOR DATAGATE MK2
RDM TOOLS LICENSE FOR DATAGATE MK2
RDM SENSOR MONITOR LIC FOR DATAGATE MK2
DPRO ENGINE OPTION FOR DATAGATE MK2
STREAM AUDITOR LICENSE FOR DATAGATE MK2
HOT SPARE LICENSE FOR DATAGATE MK2
I'd buy it all If I find it applicable for my work.
Do all 8 ports work as DMX outputs or you can assign them to be inputs?
Incidentally.... I know this all considered as PRO stuff, but it would be nice for ENTTEC to have more videos with feature explanation and tutorials...
Last edited by Dj Solo on Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: D-pro & PRO Mk2 limitations

Post by Dj Solo »

Regarding audio triggering, I don't believe D-Pro handles it like you would want. However, you can drag audio tracks in to Cuelists and build the list to the waveform. Very handy.
I hope enttec guys will implement it in D-pro, cause this "sound triggered" effect is imposible to "manually" recreate...
2Henchmen
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Re: D-pro & PRO Mk2 limitations

Post by 2Henchmen »

Dj Solo wrote:but dont forget about extra license software, that comes with it.... to use it's full functionality it would cost another 2253$!
One of the great things about the Datagate is how modular it is. Buy what you need now, and you have the option for more. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a lot more options in the future
Dj Solo wrote:MERGING LICENSE FOR DATAGATE MK2
This allows for signals from different sources to be merged together based on whatever priority you'd like. For example, if I have D-Pro controlling a show, and channels being controlled via OSC...the merge license allows me to say "Whenever the OSC controller sends info, it merges with the D-Pro info in LTP or HTP manner. That way, if D-Pro is, say, sending Ch 1-10 at 50%, and I need to bump channel 8 up to 100% I can from my OSC device without issue. I could even take those levels down to to 0% from the OSC side, because that would be the latest command sent.
Dj Solo wrote:RDM TOOLS LICENSE FOR DATAGATE MK2
RDM allows for some remote management of fixtures. Setting personalities, DMX addresses, etc. So if your rig is all RDM compatible, you could readdress lights without ever having to physically touch them.
Dj Solo wrote:RDM SENSOR MONITOR LIC FOR DATAGATE MK2
Same sort of deal as above, but makes use of RDM to monitor heath of fixtures.
Dj Solo wrote:DPRO ENGINE OPTION FOR DATAGATE MK2
This allows for some limited playback of D-Pro showfiles. I say limited because it can run Cuelists, not individual cues at the moment. So, you can load up a D-Pro file and walk away. Then the Datagate is a standalone solution. This is what I'm currently using on an architectural project.
Dj Solo wrote:STREAM AUDITOR LICENSE FOR DATAGATE MK2
Provides information about the various streams the Datagate is receiving/outputting. Can be very handy to evaluate issues in Art-Net and is also just great for making sure things are running properly.
Dj Solo wrote:HOT SPARE LICENSE FOR DATAGATE MK2
Pretty simple. If you have two Datagates and one completely fails, a spare can take over and continue operation.
Dj Solo wrote:Do all 8 ports work as DMX outputs or you can assign them to be inputs?
This is totally configurable. They can do whatever you'd like. Stream three Art-Net universes to ports while converting the other five from DMX to Art-Net? Easy. Take one input and split to multiple outputs? Simple. Its a really awesome system.
Dj Solo wrote:Incidentally.... I know this all considered as PRO stuff, but it would be nice for ENTTEC to have more videos with feature explanation and tutorials...
Its something I've considered doing as an end user. I've got the time and equipment. Maybe I'll make some videos, unfortunately I don't have all the licenses so I'd be limited to short trial periods.
Dj Solo wrote:I hope enttec guys will implement it in D-pro, cause this "sound triggered" effect is imposible to "manually" recreate...
I'm a firm believer in that there is always a programming work around. You could set MIDI triggers in Ableton to match the track you want to trigger lights. Like, say every bass beat it would fire off a CC. Set a show control button in D-Pro to trigger off that, and you're good to go. Its not the most direct method...but I would say its more reliable. Instead of relying on the software to interpret audio, its just listening for MIDI triggers that you put in. There can be perfection there that isn't possible with a sound active system.

I'm a firm believer in automation and system interconnection. Once, a friend of mine and I implemented a full slave voice control system for an entire theatre using RSD Showman, Ableton, a Yamaha DM2000, Hog3PC, GlovePIE, and Touch OSC. Walk in, address the theatre by name and password, wait for the beep, specify the event, and the system would automatically prep the space. Switch showfiles, turn on and focus projectors, bring up mic channels, load DVDs, whatever.

I work extremely hard to be extremely lazy.
Dj Solo
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Re: D-pro & PRO Mk2 limitations

Post by Dj Solo »

thanks for soft features explanation... now I'm seriously considering purchasing this expensive beast! 8-)
You could set MIDI triggers in Ableton to match the track you want to trigger lights. Like, say every bass beat it would fire off a CC. Set a show control button in D-Pro to trigger off that, and you're good to go. Its not the most direct method...but I would say its more reliable. Instead of relying on the software to interpret audio, its just listening for MIDI triggers that you put in. There can be perfection there that isn't possible with a sound active system
- this is exactly what I like about sound active triggering - smoothly, yet zinger moving faders - you can't do this kind of movements with midi commands... and you can't convince me on this one ;)
Last edited by Dj Solo on Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2Henchmen
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Re: D-pro & PRO Mk2 limitations

Post by 2Henchmen »

Dj Solo wrote: - this is exactly what I like about sound active triggering - smoothly moving faders - you can't do this kind of movements with midi commands... and you can't convince me on this one ;)
Of course you can. I use MIDI for control of all my encoders. Fades are smooth and perfect. MIDI is way more flexible than people give it credit for.
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Re: D-pro & PRO Mk2 limitations

Post by Dj Solo »

Of course you can. I use MIDI for control of all my encoders. Fades are smooth and perfect. MIDI is way more flexible than people give it credit for.
Ok, I see what you mean, you generate an intense midi stream from audio signal, right? Could you please describe the way you do it in ableton? How do you set audio input sensivity, attack, release, direction parameters? Is it possible to adjust it while playback?
2Henchmen
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Re: D-pro & PRO Mk2 limitations

Post by 2Henchmen »

I'm not usually an Ableton user (I use Reaper). So the mechanics of it are a bit beyond my expertise. I suppose you could use something like ReaTune to convert an audio file into a MIDI stream. Restrict the conversion to one MIDI channel and then build cues based on elements of the audio you want to be controlled via audio. It isn't something I've tried personally (since I prefer manually running shows from audio), but I don't see why that wouldn't work.

There's also the option to add MIDI takes in Reaper, and those are endlessly configurable. I bet you could build whatever you wanted fade wise.

Moreover, my point was that MIDI can easily perform clean, smooth fades. As to exactly how to generate that from Ableton is up for experimentation.
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Re: D-pro & PRO Mk2 limitations

Post by Dj Solo »

Does D-pro support Art-net II and Art-net III protocols and does it work with units over computer's ethernet port?
2Henchmen
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Re: D-pro & PRO Mk2 limitations

Post by 2Henchmen »

Dj Solo wrote:Does D-pro support Art-net II and Art-net III protocols and does it work with units over computer's ethernet port?
Artnet III was released in 2011. I assume D-Pro has support. Though, given the universe limitation of D-Pro, there isn't really a need to address over 32,000U or even the 256U of the previous revision. Regardless, whatever D-Pro supports is plenty for D-Pro.

By definition, ArtNet is an IP method of communication. Networking needs to be present somewhere for it to work. In my case, I run ethernet from my workstation to a router, then from the router into my Datagate. Technically, you could run straight from a computer into a Datagate (it works, I've done it). However, that's assuming your NICs are fine with it. Most modern ones are fine with direct connections, some older setups need a switch in between. The benefit of having your node connected to a router is easy accessibility. If I need to check some things I can fire up Luminair and spit Art-Net at my Datagate no problem. With a direct connection, you're pretty much committed to that one workstation unless you want to dive in to some more complex networking stuff.
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Re: D-pro & PRO Mk2 limitations

Post by JeremyAtEnttec »

Art-Net II: I haven't checked the actual protocol wording but it's something like--the ability to send Unicast packets instead of broadcasting them. If that's all there is, then yes, DPRO can do it. If there's more, ask about what you're interested in and I'll let you know if it can or not.
2Henchmen
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Re: D-pro & PRO Mk2 limitations

Post by 2Henchmen »

JeremyAtEnttec wrote:Art-Net II: I haven't checked the actual protocol wording but it's something like--the ability to send Unicast packets instead of broadcasting them. If that's all there is, then yes, DPRO can do it. If there's more, ask about what you're interested in and I'll let you know if it can or not.
Correct I believe. Unicast was added in II and there was a universe bump from 40 to 256. I think III just bumped the universe count.
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Re: D-pro & PRO Mk2 limitations

Post by Dj Solo »

Is it possible for D-pro to control more than 8 universes?
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